tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post7088378151087434774..comments2023-11-05T09:33:34.696+00:00Comments on The 'Spill: The Twelve Tasks of ToffeeBoy - #2 Everything But The GirlBlimpyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03062521891682719767noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-60472202009650795322009-03-10T20:10:00.000+00:002009-03-10T20:10:00.000+00:00@ steenbeck - thanks ;o)@ steenbeck - thanks ;o)ToffeeBoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09610938852113922395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-46474446931758272242009-03-09T00:05:00.000+00:002009-03-09T00:05:00.000+00:00Thanks, Toffeeboy, still reading. I'll give it a l...Thanks, Toffeeboy, still reading. I'll give it a listen.<BR/><BR/>And I just wanted to say (if you're still reading) that I thought your capricorn comment on the 'Spill was perfectly phrased and very funny, and I don't understand the reaction at all. In fact, I don't understand people who come storming into RR, all contentious, with a chip on their shoulders. I'd been reading quite a while before I dared to post anything, and I felt quite shy when I finally did.steenbeckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14870117999742670522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-79502082173579901032009-03-07T08:52:00.000+00:002009-03-07T08:52:00.000+00:00Oops - missed out:Acoustic (1992) - it's ... errr ...Oops - missed out:<BR/><BR/>Acoustic (1992) - it's ... errr ... an acoustic album ...ToffeeBoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09610938852113922395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-15200821416562342382009-03-07T08:51:00.000+00:002009-03-07T08:51:00.000+00:00@ steenbeck - if you're still reading this, here (...@ steenbeck - if you're still reading this, here (a little later than promised) is the ToffeeBoy guide to EBTG's extensive back catalogue:<BR/><BR/>Eden (1984) - Poppy, but with a jazzy/bossa nova feel to it. Standout tracks include Each And Everyone, Tender Blue and I Must Confess. Not released in US - instead and album called Everything But The Girl was issued including half the tracks from Eden together with some B-sides and other early recordings. <BR/><BR/>Love Not Money (1985) - Full of jangly guitars and much rockier than the debut. EBTG were very much in awe of The Smiths at the time and it shows (Johnny Marr even guested on one track - on harmonica!). Lots of intense social commentary in the lyrics (child poverty, Northern Ireland, women's rights etc.)<BR/><BR/>Baby The Stars Shine Bright (1986) - Perhaps over-produced by today's standards but my personal favourite nonetheless. Features a wall of orchestral strings but also returns to a more jazzy feel with the odd diversion into country and western.<BR/><BR/>Idlewild (1988) - Accusations of a middle-of-the-road feel stick quite well. Personally, as I've said elsewhere, it's the lyrics that lift it out of the easy-listening comfort zone. Some of their best, most poignant, moving lyrics are featured here.<BR/><BR/>The Language Of Life (1990) - More of the same really - perhaps more of a soul/jazz feel than the previous album and features Stan Getz on The Road. Overall, not one of my favourites.<BR/><BR/>Worldwide (1991) - I have to admit that I'd lost interest in EBTG by this stage and only really discovered this album in the last few years. Hmmm...<BR/><BR/>Amplified Heart (1994) - This largely acoustic album featured the original version of Missing. The tarck was remixed by Todd Terry and the rest, as they say, is history. Ben Watt discovered beats and EBTG became essentially a trip-hop band from here on in.<BR/><BR/>Walking Wounded (1996) - Their biggest album as far as album sales/chart success is concerned. Electronic beats and trippy music. Not to everyone's taste and not really to mine - but the title track is exceptional.<BR/><BR/>Temperamental (1999) - More of the same - don't really know it that well.ToffeeBoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09610938852113922395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-50156244422170000842009-03-05T21:40:00.000+00:002009-03-05T21:40:00.000+00:00Ich bin das Volk!Ich bin das Volk!Abahachihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06007129278000634520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-27990575093542874452009-03-05T20:31:00.000+00:002009-03-05T20:31:00.000+00:00Do you ever wish you hadn't started something? I ...Do you ever wish you hadn't started something? I was planning to start considering all the questions in the third Task of ToffeeBoy but since one of the main issues has come up again, I think I'll put my penn'orth in right now:<BR/><BR/><B>Does pop music have to be popular?</B> My initial answer to this was a big, fat, resounding ‘yes’ but I think I’ve changed my mind. The term ‘Pop Music’ is of course derived from ‘popular music’ but it gradually dawned on me (OK, ToffeeGirl pointed it out to me) that popular here doesn’t mean ‘lots of people like it’ but rather that it’s music that’s liked by ‘the people’ as opposed to ‘classical music’, which isn’t!<BR/><BR/>So, I really don’t think that popularity enters into the equation: it can be Pop Music even if I’m the only person on earth who knows, or indeed, likes it. Agreed?ToffeeBoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09610938852113922395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-1677488803116202702009-03-05T18:58:00.000+00:002009-03-05T18:58:00.000+00:00That's ok, Aba - but the trombone playing oldest o...That's ok, Aba - but the trombone playing oldest one would be especially upset as she is fond of your podcasts. To me Pop has to be popular - thought what our own king of pop Mr. Toffee was using these threads to highlight some bands that should have been more popular than they were/are. But I'm often wrong about these things.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-42072349286260426572009-03-05T17:15:00.000+00:002009-03-05T17:15:00.000+00:00Sorry Aba, did I extrapolate too far from 'A song ...Sorry Aba, did I extrapolate too far from 'A song which over-emphasises the beat at the expense of, say, catchy chorus and musical hooks is less likely to be pop. A song which over-emphasises the lyrics, in which they become the central element rather than one element in balance with others, is less likely to be pop.'? That seemed to imply that it all has to be balanced and, y'know, nice. Like Coldplay. Aren't they pop then? Sorry, I'm lost again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-58412110400029087172009-03-05T16:00:00.000+00:002009-03-05T16:00:00.000+00:00Sorry, I'm un-donding again, aren't I? Actually I ...Sorry, I'm un-donding again, aren't I? Actually I quite liked <I>Clocks</I> when it first came out. But, seriously, Coldplay as <I>pop</I>? Popular, undoubtedly.Abahachihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06007129278000634520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-27260287208999164392009-03-05T13:54:00.000+00:002009-03-05T13:54:00.000+00:00Now, now Abahachi, sneering at Coldplay is only go...Now, now Abahachi, sneering at Coldplay is only going to upset the Shoeteens. Unlike ETBTG, Coldplay have that elusive element x, that enables them to be pop and popular, despite some dodgy lyrics.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-87954383282081847302009-03-05T12:00:00.000+00:002009-03-05T12:00:00.000+00:00"Aba's inference that pop shouldn't scare the hors..."Aba's inference that pop shouldn't scare the horses". Did I say that? I don't think I believe it if I did. And comparing EBTG with Coldplay is a far worse insult than anything I came up with. We'd do better to measure the popness of music in terms of its distance from Coldplay, in which case EBTG certainly score a respectable 4-5 at least.Abahachihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06007129278000634520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-47683108774280446262009-03-05T10:50:00.000+00:002009-03-05T10:50:00.000+00:00We must applaud you again, TB, for this courageous...We must applaud you again, TB, for this courageous attempt at whatever it is you are attempting to do. Aba's inference that pop shouldn't scare the horses (which, to be fair, I think you also included as part of your definition last time) really is the antithesis of all that rock'n'roll started out to be. And is certainly what puts me (and I suspect many others) off. My stepson has been playing Coldplay's <I>Clocks </I>on the piano recently because it is such a catchy piano riff. It has to be pop: my damned head won't let go. But musically it is derivative and repetetive, lyrically it is bobbins. I know you aren't promoting Martin's mob, TB, but EBTG seem to be in the same inoffensive area, hiding whatever darkness they may have inside a warm, well-produced cocoon. Respect, man!<BR/><BR/>@steen: no worries, I expected some reaction. BTW, don't you find it a little odd that one, now regular, RRer <I>still </I>insists on addressing you as male? (I'm sure you know who I mean.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-50367694891220612592009-03-05T09:16:00.000+00:002009-03-05T09:16:00.000+00:00Lyrics. Um. The more I think about this, the more ...Lyrics. Um. The more I think about this, the more complicated the whole issue gets, and the harder I find it to articulate what I felt about EBTG. I mean, I love lyrics, and all other things being equal would always prefer a song with decent words to one with pointless blethering - but at the same time I can't shake the feeling that the lyrics may be one of the crucial elements that determine whether or not something counts as 'pop'. It's not the contents - I have no problem with the idea of pop with a message, and as RR shows there are great pop songs about pretty well anything - but something else...<BR/><BR/>Hypothesis: pop is not just about a song having a sufficient number of pop-like attributes, but about the balance between those attributes. A song which over-emphasises the beat at the expense of, say, catchy chorus and musical hooks is less likely to be pop. A song which over-emphasises the lyrics, in which they become the central element rather than one element in balance with others, is less likely to be pop. Dylan was never pop. Cohen, even on <I>I'm Your Man</I>, was never pop.<BR/><BR/>This is actually quite personal for me, which may or may not be a good thing for the argument. I would love to write proper pop songs, and I don't feel I've ever succeeded (maybe one or two have come close) because in the end there is always too much emphasis on the lyrics - even when that's expressed negatively through a deliberate attempt at writing minimal and/or banal lyrics. It's not that the lyrics aspire to greatness, let alone poetry, but they are too dominant in the mixture of elements for the songs to work as pop. So it may well be that my reactions to EBTG are simply the projection of my own feelings of failure and inadequacy in this department...Abahachihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06007129278000634520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-65369095862609761462009-03-05T07:27:00.000+00:002009-03-05T07:27:00.000+00:00OK, i've given the tracks a good listen now and i'...OK, i've given the tracks a good listen now and i'm afraid I haven't been won around, I pretty much agree 100% with Abahachi.......there was nothing I hated about it, but it just didn't say anything to me either or grab me, which is what "pop" should do, whatever the style.....sorry! <BR/><BR/>Out of the tracks there, I liked "Anytown" the best for the (slightly!- and maybe that's the problem, they seem afraid to take the plunge and go all out, which results in the aforementioned blandness) rock-a-boogie feel and enjoyed the lyrics (but not the music) of "The Night I Heard Caruso Sing".<BR/>The beats behind "Walking Wounded" and "Hatfield 1980" were cool, but again they seemed content to drift along at the middle pace.....which is maybe the point....hmm...<BR/><BR/>Despite the above comments, thanks a lot for posting it and am definitely looking forward to what you've got up your sleeve for the next one!Luke-senseihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11238609215530700500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-85942852955721588442009-03-05T00:45:00.000+00:002009-03-05T00:45:00.000+00:00Chris, I'm sorry, I was mostly being silly. (I gue...Chris, I'm sorry, I was mostly being silly. (I guess it's all true though) And I was testing out the technique I learned when my keyboard was broken of using a lack of spaces for emphasis.steenbeckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14870117999742670522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-33557918284497189462009-03-05T00:33:00.000+00:002009-03-05T00:33:00.000+00:00Ka pow! Fair 'nuff.Ka pow! Fair 'nuff.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-36776217917535392882009-03-04T23:26:00.000+00:002009-03-04T23:26:00.000+00:00I just have to say, for the record, that I don't t...I just have to say, for the record, that I don't think of myself as liking music that chicks like, despite my, um chickness. New posters on RR always assume I'm a boy. I've always been like that. When I was a youngster I wanted to be an old man. I.do.not.like.chick.music.steenbeckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14870117999742670522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-5501476034683918962009-03-04T22:29:00.000+00:002009-03-04T22:29:00.000+00:00@ steenbeck - glad you're enjoying it. I'll put to...@ steenbeck - glad you're enjoying it. I'll put together a beginners' guide to EBTG tomorrow with a brief introduction to each of the albums.<BR/><BR/>@ Chris - I was thinking the same myself. Perhaps my reputation for liking cheesy music should be revisited - perhaps it's chick music I like.*<BR/><BR/>@ Japanther/Humpty - I look forward to hearing your views - positive or not.<BR/><BR/>@ Abahachi - very interested in what you said about the lyrics perhaps being 'too good for pop'. Isn't that the same argument DsD made about messages in pop music - which we rejected?<BR/><BR/>@ejd - fascinating to hear the views of someone so un-steeped in pop music - and particularly interesting that you picked out Hatfield as your favourite - I felt it was the weakest on the list so that just goes to show. Something. I'm not sure what...<BR/><BR/>* PLEASE note heavy irony. PLEASE!!! OK, I'll get me coat...ToffeeBoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09610938852113922395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-29042881763541567422009-03-04T15:07:00.000+00:002009-03-04T15:07:00.000+00:00I followed the last debate but didn't contribute, ...I followed the last debate but didn't contribute, and since pop appreciation is still a relatively new thing for me, I still don't have structured thoughts about it.<BR/>I knew Missing, but apart from a lot of mentions on RR, I hadn't heard anything else by EBTG, so thanks for that, I liked Hatfield 1980 the most I think.ejaydeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09375968795284771538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-71543923218183108652009-03-04T13:21:00.000+00:002009-03-04T13:21:00.000+00:00I did mean to mention the lyrics, which I think ar...I did mean to mention the lyrics, which I think are rather good - perhaps a little too good for 'pop', which tends to thrive on banality? One of the reasons why <I>Missing</I> is a great song is that it has a chorus you can pick up instantly, whereas of the songs on the list that I didn't previously know, there seemed to be memorable lines but not memorable whole choruses. An act you have to get to know to love, rather than the instant hit that I at least tend to associate with the 'pop' tag?Abahachihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06007129278000634520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-70367102689809991872009-03-04T12:44:00.000+00:002009-03-04T12:44:00.000+00:00Epic post TB! I won' re-ignite the "what-is-or-isn...Epic post TB! I won' re-ignite the "what-is-or-isn't-pop" debate as I think Abahachi provided a pretty good definition....although I would still argue that "pop" is different from other genres as it relates to a more general aesthetic or ideology or even just feeling rather than a particular musical style.....but maybe all genres do that too...hmm......<BR/><BR/>Will give feedback on the tracks tomorrow when I can get time to listen...but I fear I may be siding with Abahachi again on this one, but I promise to listen with an open mind.<BR/><BR/>and.....i'm not EGGaxctly like Humpty Dumpty but I do like to sit on walls and HATCH plans....sorry for the ROTTEN egg puns, i'm only YOLKing, I promise I won't CRACK any more.....<BR/><BR/>er...i'll get me shell....Luke-senseihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11238609215530700500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-11845411155635780922009-03-04T11:09:00.000+00:002009-03-04T11:09:00.000+00:00At the risk of saying something indefensible, I'm ...At the risk of saying something indefensible, I'm tempted to infer from the small sample of comments above that maybe EBTG play <I>Girls' Pop</I>. TB is the very obvious exception to this highly scientific analysis but he is rather stuck on TG, it seems.<BR/><BR/>Is there a Venn diagram with a set of <I>'Pop Music Girls Like' </I>and another set of <I>'Pop Music Boys Like' </I>, with quite a large overlap?<BR/><BR/>OK, rifles at the ready, take aim....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-63719718823750692152009-03-03T23:55:00.000+00:002009-03-03T23:55:00.000+00:00Toffeeboy, it's funny, because I remember hear...Toffeeboy, it's funny, because I remember hearing about EBTG, but I don't remember hearing any. (I think I'm the right age for them, I've just always been a bit oblivious). I'm part way through your list (I'm up to the Night I heard Caruso Sing) And I really really like it. A lot. I don't mean to compare it to B&S, precisely, but it reminds me of them, because it has lovely melodies, interesting instrumentation, and smart lyrics--which are all important things for me. Thanks for this, I'm really enjoying this list.steenbeckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14870117999742670522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-87501545161531274772009-03-03T23:42:00.000+00:002009-03-03T23:42:00.000+00:00@ Dsd - enjoying the Disney stuff. I spent two ha...@ Dsd - enjoying the Disney stuff. I spent two happy weekends at Rat Central (aka Disneyland Paris) when the young MissToffees were much younger MissToffees (Christ, the older one has just started taking driving lessons which must surely make me ... err ... well, in a word ... 'old') so, where was I? Oh yes, I am insanely jealous of your trip to Paris and looking forward to more adorably cute pictures.ToffeeBoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09610938852113922395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1533372025110910037.post-34229683536550594352009-03-03T23:39:00.000+00:002009-03-03T23:39:00.000+00:00@ Chris - I'm immensely impressed (nay, honoured!)...@ Chris - I'm immensely impressed (nay, honoured!) that you took the time to give them another listen. I suspect that the attic may be a metaphor but, let it pass, let it pass... I love the line "<EM>You drove me to drink, and I never had the courtesy to thank you</EM>".ToffeeBoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09610938852113922395noreply@blogger.com