The 'Spill: Whining ways ...

Friday, October 9, 2009

Whining ways ...

I'll probably regret posting this - it's a long, cathartic (almost certainly misguided) rant. I've put the text in as the first three comments to save it taking up valuable space on the home page.

64 comments:

ToffeeBoy said...: OK – please stay with me on this one. And bear in mind that (many of you) have known me since my first ‘Spill post in January 2008 and (I hope) think of me as a fairly reasonable person.

A couple of weeks ago, I got so fed up with Readers Recommend (NOT with the ‘Spill, you’ll note) that I decided to undertake a self-imposed exile and (as some of you noticed) I didn’t participate at all in the Separation or Victory themes. This was partly due to what I felt were some unpleasant undertones (no, not you Feargal) and partly because, although I REALLY DO KNOW IT DOESN’T MATTER AT ALL, it does get quite disheartening when every single one of your bloody noms, week-in, week-out, falls on deaf ears as far as our gurus are concerned. Although I’m probably not up there with the steenbecks, ejaydees, sonsofwebcore, DarceysDads, magicmen and gremlins et al, I am a fairly regular contributor and I’m there or thereabouts almost every week, chucking out ideas and justifying noms with the best of you while at the same time donding the nominations of others. Yet, despite this active participation, I have only had one A-List hit in 2009 - my solitary success being the rather dubious nomination of Caravan’s The Land Of Grey And Pink for the Fictional Places theme. (I think it’s generally accepted that unfair methods were used on that occasion and indeed the fallout from Caravangate is still being felt to this very day.) In fact, in twenty months on the blog, I have only made the A-List 5 times (3 of which were in the reign of Queen Maddy The Magnificent).; October 9, 2009 at 9:12 PM
ToffeeBoy said...: Anyway, having considered matters and reached the conclusion that IT REALLY REALLY DOESN’T MATTER AT ALL, I thought to myself, stop being such a twat ToffeeBoy (I often speak to myself in the third-person-username). The joy of RR is in the calling to mind of music you’d forgotten about, the discovery of new music and, most of all, the wit, the badinage and (of course) the bad puns perpetrated on an unsuspecting world by your fellow reprobates with (dare I say it?) gay abandon. So back I came this week, posting on no fewer than 20 occassions (warning for those of a gentle constitution: there are more statistics to come in this post) and generally throwing myself into the whole spirit of the thing. In the process I nominated 13 songs (one of which I later retracted), donded 23 (2 of them twice!) and got involved in some diverting discussions about football in general and Hibs in particular, which developed into a widespread expansion of knowledge concerning the Municipal Burgh of Leith (aka, my place of birth). All good stuff.

And in amongst all this, I posted an ‘eloquent and impassioned promotion’ (© bishbosh) of Martin Stephenson & The Daintees’ Rain. I stand by this nomination 100%. It is entirely and utterly on topic and it ticks all of Macca’s boxes:

- song about rain - check
- precipitation featuring prominently – check
- precipitation influencing mood & direction of song – check

Now I REALLY REALLY REALLY DO KNOW THAT IT DOESN’T MATTER AT ALL but I genuinely thought that this song had a chance of making it to the A-List – or at least, for god’s sake, the B-List. But did it? Did it f…..! And this kind of thing happens all too regularly for my liking. Most weeks there’s at least one song that I’m particularly keen to see make it and I awake with high expectations, but every Friday morning delivers the disappointment of failure to my doorstep. And I have to say that it’s getting just a tad depressing.

Of course only ten songs can make it and of course it’s up to Paul Mac to decide what’s in and what’s not but I seriously can’t understand why Rain was overlooked. I genuinely don’t get it. I’ve got nothing against the songs that made it (with one exception (see below)) and there are admittedly now two new names on the A-List (The Dramatics and The Portico Quartet) but did we really need a ninth Scott Walker song or a twelfth listing for Kate Bush?; October 9, 2009 at 9:13 PM
ToffeeBoy said...: [Warning: buke alert!!!] And did we need When The Levee Breaks at all? I know comparison is odious but so, in my opinion, are Led Zeppelin. Apologies to lambertinha and to all of you who love the Zep, I’ve just never heard anything by them that remotely interests me. Posturing, soulless cod rock. I had a look at the lyrics to When The Levee Breaks and I felt for a minute that I was back in the sixth form, writing lyrics for my rawk band. Here, for the benefit of the whole class, are the lyrics to this graduate of the A-List:

If it keeps on rainin’, levee’s goin’ to break,
If it keeps on rainin’, levee’s goin’ to break,
When the levee breaks I’ll have no place to stay.
Mean old levee taught me to weep and moan,
Lord, mean old levee taught me to weep and moan,
Got what it takes to make a mountain man leave his home,
Oh, well, oh, well, oh, well,
Don’t it make you feel bad,
When you’re tryin to find your way home,
You don’t know which way to go?
If you’re goin’ down south,
They got no work to do,
If you don’t know about Chicago.
Cryin’ wont help you, prayin’ won’t do you no good,
Now, cryin’ won,t help you, prayin’ won’t do you no good,
When the levee breaks, mama, you got to move.
All last night sat on the levee and moaned,
All last night sat on the levee and moaned,
Thinkin’ bout my baby and my happy home.
Going, gone to Chicago,
Gone to Chicago,
Sorry but I can’t take you.
Going down, going down now, going down.

Well come on guys and gals, Shakespeare it ain’t. And it’s really not a song about rain, is it?

Martin Stephenson on the other hand, composed for our listening pleasure, a song full of lyrical subtlety. Real lyrics about real life – and most important of all, it’s about rain! So why was it ignored?

I’m not saying it’s the greatest song ever, I’m not going to argue that it’s flawless – I just think it should at least have troubled the B-List.

I decided to take a closer look at the ten that did make it and this is the point at which this post crosses an uncomfortable boundary into a world of paranoia and potential insanity. Interestingly, in light of Paul’s comments at the top of this week’s thread, the last of the ten to make it (nilpferd’s shout for Monsoon) was nominated at 8:21 on Friday morning – two minutes after I posted my first batch of noms – and 76 hours before the deadline for nominations. Five of the A-Listers were taken in the first 55 minutes. Paul asked for justifications (‘As ever, much will lie in the justification’) and yet five of the ten were accompanied by little or no justification. Most were well supported by fellow readers (would it be too appallingly sad to report that I’ve calculated the average dond per successful A-Lister? 5.10 if you must know) but one of the ten received only one supporting comment – Martin Stephenson’s Rain was donded (or re-nommed) on no fewer than nine occasions.

I suppose what I’d really like to know, is this: is it just me? I know that several other ‘regulars’ are still in single figures on the A-List so perhaps I should quit whining and get a life. Perhaps I’m using this as a defence mechanism – defending myself from the reality of a stressful job by focusing on something that REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY DOESN’T MATTER AT ALL.; October 9, 2009 at 9:13 PM
nilpferd said...: We all have our I-need-to-disengage-with-RR-for-the-moment moments, TB. I'm not sure how much of the above is meant rhetorically, in a letting off steam fashion, but I would say that RR is a hard game to play if your aim is to have regular presence on the A-list, and you maybe need to think about whether you're making a rod for your own back by continuing to play it, if it's only going to frustrate you. I have to say in times of stress I've used it as an escape too, but I haven't been that bothered about pretty meagre returns as far as things I've suggested being picked, as long as there's feedback from other contributors. The last couple of weeks notwithstanding, and thanks for the non-buking of my Portico nom, I guess. I don't think it's fair to take a shot at Led Zep, plenty of people love that track, and its selection is not the real reason you're pissed off.; October 9, 2009 at 9:45 PM
saneshane said...: Interesting rant.. ginger beer for that man.

unless shoeys sneaked back on, me and him are drawing on 8 each!
and I think we both gave up.. but for me, because my computer can't cope... and I can't explain why I love tracks.. it's a feeling .. I love posting playlists.. because the songs are there to speak for themselves.
(but conversely I love your toffee tasks, trying to explain your own idiosyncratic take on POP, they are a joy even if I don't get the bands sometimes)

I do wish I went back in to explain my love of the Track by The last seven days..
I did read the Rain list and agree that - even though they are mostly good tracks (amazed by liking Thom.. nice one ejd.. what do I know to judge - but inspire us a bit more I thought in my own way... i also thought cloudbusting had been in.. fantastic track (and here's the gemini- IF it gets a 14 year old to hear it for the first time, what joys for them, we all had to discover it once - if you like Kate that is- other wise nightmare!!!)

Jolly article by Queen Maddy on childrens music in Film and Music too....

but it is just a parlor game and some Gurus just won't click with you... (I think Maddy may have had the 'spill mentality)

and after saying that I don't want 'spill to become a gang mentality either.. but it is a place to rant more I think...

just don't stress too much..; October 9, 2009 at 9:49 PM
treefrogdemon said...: ToffeeBoy, like you I'm still in single figures and I've not been on RR much longer than you - I started in Nov '07. I tend to console myself with the thought that it's because my taste is SO refined that not many others share it. A friend of mine gets cross when he can't find the record he wants in the shop; I tell him it's because the shop only has room to stock the ordinary stuff, but this does not console him.

I agree that it's hard. Last week, like you, I thought I was really going to make it at least once, and then when the new topic isn't that inspiring it's harder, because you don't have that to encourage you on. I tell you what though - we've both got a few on the list and that means we can damn well do it again.; October 9, 2009 at 10:03 PM
bethnoir said...: Sorry to hear you're finding it so frustrating TB. I don't think I've had a nomination get anywhere since Guru No 1 left, but it's still a diversion I enjoy.

Music is a matter of taste though and you're only going to make yourself miserable if you argue with the referee.

Have a pleasant and calm weekend.; October 9, 2009 at 10:10 PM
DarceysDad said...: "WAITER!? Another round over here, please ..."
[then whispered in the ear of the barkeep, as he approaches]
"... and that Prozac tab is for the ginger beer, OK?"

Now then Toffee, me old chum -

This rant, sooner or later, comes to us all. You have lasted WAY longer than I did before letting it all boil over, and my unedifying strop - which stills makes me wince with embarrassment - was actually on the mothership at Dorian.

I find it incredible that such knowledgeable, impassioned, erudite and frequent posters such as yourself, Shoey, and particularly saneshane, can have less A-listers between them than I have. It's not as if any of the gurus have been heavy rockers: occasional sub Dave Simpson is easily the biggest fan of noisy guitars amongst the journos.

But here's my tuppen'th of a gut-feeling on why it is as it is -

Both my very first and very last successful nominations in Dorian's reign were completely unsupported. I only listed them, and no-one so much as hinted at a sedond. Given that the Book-Launch Social / Dorian's RR-leaving-do followed Anne Briggs' debut zedding, I and my Stella-fuelled courage buttoned Herr Lynskey about how he came to his final selections.
With grace and patience way beyond the call of duty, Dorian explained that even at the point of posting a topic up, he often had an outline in his head of the column he was likely to write the following Tuesday. When suitable songs came up, they were likely to find favour. A song - however well-supported - that didn't fit with the flow of a column, wasn't. Simple as that.

Now I will admit that I could never get my head round RobF's way of working at all, but Maddy often admitted that what she ended up with was entirely led by the enthusiasm of the weekend's blogging. PaulMac (whose style I have said all along I really like, even during my barren patch with him) seems to me to be more in Dorian's line; there's a column to be written that requires songs to fit. I'm not saying he doesn't need us, because he no doubt frequently gets to metaphorical crossroads when writing a piece, and has to choose which road we'll take him down. What I am saying [At bleedin' last! - Ed.] is that the journalist head in him seems to rule over the music fanatic heart, i.e. the desire to write something people will read. To that end, Kate's Cloudbusting was an open goal for cross-referencing to its source, and thus being a piece of "good" journalism.

Now that is NOT a criticism of Paul / us / the column. It's just my take on a possible explanation for the way it is.
As supporting evidence, anyone noticed how Paul often says that B-listed songs were actually amongst his very favourites of a weekend. In that case, why aren't they in the A-list? Answer: see the above theory.

To paraphrase Sting - the blog's too big without you, TB. There's a Toffee-sized hole with just a small stain of black&white confection on it when you're not there.

I know I'm one of those that is thought to be a 'favoured' one, so my support may be seen as condescending. Well I don't feel favoured by the journos, but I bloody well DO by the interactio I get with you lot. I've already got a new PC for Shane, a search party to Malawi for lukethedrifter, an RR app for the iPhone for Shoey et al amongst the list of things to buy with my Lotto jackpot when it comes ... tell me what I to write next to your name, Toffee.

(Oh, Premiership Title already claimed elsewhere, I'm afraid. Soz!)

;o); October 9, 2009 at 10:19 PM
tincanman said...: Toffee, what separates this from the usual whine is you have taken the time to look at it from not just your perspective, so thanks for that and I'll have another read tomorrow when all synapses are firing.

Don't beat yourself up for sharing though, 'cause as I said your anlysis points to some, well points about content and timing, that goes beyond the poor pitiful me, I didn't get picked this week.

So I hope we'll all try and distance ourselves from our success rate biases about this.

(Like everyone probably, I feel my noms are better quality than my ranking would suggest, but I happily nom and listening every week. What would disturb me more than having songs rejected is them not being at least considered. This happened in the covers week because they weren't presented in the right form, so fair enough. But if as you've pointed out, stuff is getting picked without justifications, then what gives? I know that some songs I've put in dropbox are not very easy to find and that Paul hasn't signed up, so quite likely somenoms are ignored rather than dismissed. On the other hand, we can't listen to every nom and this isn't really his day job either.)

free associating while tired again ... wonder what I said.

main point I guess is you left your ego out of it so what you say has credibility with me. lets all do that if we pursue this.

cheers & nite; October 9, 2009 at 10:37 PM
Makinavaja said...: TB - I wrote (and lost) a long, sympathetic post. Since then a number of far better qualified RRers have expressed many of the ideas I had far better than I could have. All I will say is thanks for introducing M Stephenson's Rain to me. I didn't know the song. You are right it ticked all the boxes. I was very surprised not to see it on either of the lists.; October 9, 2009 at 10:57 PM
Shoey said...: Toffee, you're not alone. Gordon expressed similar concerns over on the Mothership & think that many others will silently pick up their ball & slink off & we'll all be worse off for it unless this is adressed somehow. My idea on how to level the playing field slightly is posted over there awaiting support. It would be helpful if you could post these concerns over there.

Think DsD is right-on about the selection process. Also, that my foolproof method of getting an A-list nom, from the other week, holds up. Nilp has argued that this isn't important, and he's right. But would counter that if you don't care about the a-list then you don't have any skin in this game. If people do decide to walk because of this issue, however, you will be affected along with everyone else.

Have also discovered that getting a post deleted is almost as much fun as an A-list nom.; October 10, 2009 at 12:41 AM
lambretinha said...: Hello, TB!

I've only been posting for a few months now. It's been enough time, however, to learn a bit about the blog, their inhabitants, and the way it seems to work, I hope... First thing I want to say is, I love this blog (and I mean both RR and the ‘Spill, which I consider as a whole), this is the friendliest, most varied and most impassionated bunch of music fans I've ever met. Every week, for free, I'm getting excellent songs I'd never heard before, songs I knew but I had long forgotten, new understanding of songs, and all things musical in general, good puns, terrible puns, and, most of all, the company of people I can relate to, speaking of things they care about, in a civilised manner.

I could argue a case on PaulMac’s defense, in fact that was my first idea. But it is beside the point, really. I don’t know why he didn’t nominate Rain. I know I would have. Probably, before “When the Levee Breaks” (In fact, I am a bit embarrassed of taking any sort of credit about it: Ashenfacedsupremo made a brilliant post arguing on the song’s behalf. All I did was typing a name before anybody else did. Let’s face it, “When the Levee Breaks” was going to be nominated eventually, and I didn’t even have to say a word about the song) But all of this is beside the point too. Some songs, you nominate them because you like them, and they seem to be on topic enough. Other songs, you care a lot more about. And when you find one song you really hold close to your chest, and it’s as on topic as it gets, and gets ignored. Well, I will not say it hurts, but it’s a bit of a wtf moment. I’ve been there, we all have.

But, and that’s the point I’m trying to make here (about time, eh?). Rain wasn’t ignored. It was donded 9 times. With all due respect to PaulMac, (and thanking him profusely for my A and B listings with him, including Zep’s), the opinion of all of you, as a whole, matters more to me than his. Not because I think he knows any less than the average RRer, or anything, but because he’s paid to do this. (Again, no disrespect. If anything, I’m jealous of you, Sir!) I post here because I love music, I love sharing the music I like with others, and I know I have that in common with a lot of people in this blog, including you. I’m not saying the A-list doesn’t “matter”. To me, it does. And I try to squeeze as many songs as I can in it. But, having 9 donds should matter more.

Please, don’t consider any of this a rebuke. I love your posts. There’s a lot of people blogging here, and posting there, which are more articulate about their music, and have a deeper knowledge of it that I could never hope to reach. I know that, when we feel things are not fair, it can really spoil the fun. But it is fun. And it is, largely because of people like you.; October 10, 2009 at 1:49 AM
ToffeeBoy said...: Well what can I say other than a b ig 'thank you' for all the very kind and supportive comments. I will respond individually and in more detail this evening - and repeat apologies where necessary (nilpf - you're so right and if I could neatly remove my uncalled for buke I would do so right now). I'm off out now for an U9s girls football match.

@ shoey - I've had a quick look on the MS and will certainly add my support to your comments later. Thanks also for The Pastels.

Spill points are on offer for the first person to identify the following lyrics which just about sum up how I feel:

I know that this is vitriol.
No solution, spleen-venting,
But I feel better having screamed. Don't you?; October 10, 2009 at 10:26 AM
Abahachi said...: I seem to do okay in getting occasional A listers on a reasonably regular basis, considering that I never suggest a huge number of songs. Interestingly, most of them have taken me surprise, and when I've had a song that I thought was an absolute shoe-in it's virtually never got anywhere, not even into the B list. I have at times got extremely cross with the MFF, listing lots of songs without offering any justification, and I generally hate themes that seem to invite searching for key words on iTunes or whatever, and there have been times when I've felt enormously frustrated with the approach of certain gurus - and I see entirely where you're coming from on all this.

One thing I can say, hand on heart, is that there is only one song on my list of successful nominations that I just threw out because it seemed relevant, and didn't offer a proper justification. All the others, I feel that I argued a decent case, and stand by the suggestions. For me, that's the most enjoyable part of the whole thing, the opportunity to discuss great songs and what makes them great (either absolutely, or relative to a specific theme). Indeed, I'm quite happy to engage in a really good theme even if I haven't got many songs to suggest; conversely, the disappointing ones are where there doesn't seem to be much to talk about, even if I can think of relevant songs.

The whole A-list competition is a bit of fun, and it's undeniable that there's a bit of a kick to be derived from seeing a song listed in the paper and thinking "that one's mine". But I would argue, quite seriously, that the really great thing about RR is the way it's out-grown its dependence on the printed column: what really matters here is the blog, and the way that we all contribute to creating something truly fantastic and fascinating. My annoyance with the MFF and the people who just list songs with the right word in the title isn't primarily because they're going to beat me to the A list, it's because it's really boring and (for me) goes against the spirit of the whole thing.; October 10, 2009 at 10:41 AM
Abahachi said...: I always thought it was "I feel better having a scream." Oh, well. Just to prove that I'm not really competitive, honest, I'm not going to try to claim the Spill point.; October 10, 2009 at 10:42 AM
tincanman said...: I would argue, quite seriously, that the really great thing about RR is the way it's out-grown its dependence on the printed column
Quite interesting you should say this because as I went to bed last night churning over TB's post and my own comment that worse than having one's suggestion rejected is noms being jumped over without any kind of real consideration.
My thinking was that we might prepare ourselves that at some point RR may come to be not worth the paper's space or time. Given the number and breadth of nominations, editing RR properly has to take more resources than the Guardian can justify economically, so we really do rely on the goodwill of whoever is at the helm. Some day, and I am not saying that is today, those addicted to RR in its current form may well have to strike out on our own. As Abahachi more or less said, it could function without the patronage of the Guardian. hmm, I myself am happy as things stand, but come to think of it nothing to stop someone who wants a certain type of RR blog to start one under their rules.; October 10, 2009 at 10:55 AM
ejaydee said...: I haven't got much to add to what's already been said, apart from the fact that the wheel turns. I had a big drought under Maddy, and paranoid megalomaniac that I am, I assumed it was something I said. But again, it is awkward for me to comment this week.

Dsd's comment reminded of this "theory" I've had for some months now. You could associate RR gurus to managers of Chelsea FC. Dorian would be our Mourinho of course, I think to a large extent it is still his thing, he made RR what it is. Rob would be Avram Grant: not liked as much as the other gurus, we're not sure how he works, and he assumed that the blog could function on auto-pilot for extended periods of time. Maddy would be Claudio Ranieri, everybody loves her, and she must have tinkered a whole lot with her playlists. Not sure yet if Paul is a Hiddink or Ancelotti.; October 10, 2009 at 12:13 PM
Chris said...: So it goes, TB, so it goes....

I've been around here a little longer than you and have notched up a mere 4 A-listed songs. Primarily that is because I don't nom that many and those that I do nominate tend to be by the same small coterie of artists. You (and tfd) nominate a greater number but I suspect that they are viewed as being 'of a type' (quality Pop from you and folk from tfd, to generalise outrageously). I used to get completely ignored by Dorian, coz he hated the GD, and it is possible that different gurus see some posters as being more 'in tune' with what they want for their column than others. Add in the fact that there is a journalistic deadline to deal with and it's easy to see that considered, justifiable selections don't always happen.

As Keith Barrett says: 'It's just a bit of fun.' It's not worth getting worked up about.

However, I'm not sure your avatar portrays you as a force to be reckoned with: pussy cat at keyboard?

Oh, and tin's point about RR becoming an entity in its own right is a definite option. It's already happened on Clip Joint, where the Graun simply hosts the blog but contributors take turns to pick the topic and 'winners'. Now if RR contributors did that, do you think that would be more or less 'fair'?; October 10, 2009 at 12:36 PM
May1366 said...: Hmmn. Everyone's said everything so all I can add is my perspective. I had the most traumatic experience of my life for the second half of last year and RR and the 'Spill were among the main things that kept me sane. And now the Marconium does a great job of stroking the obsession.
Apparently, I'm 10th in the A-listed bloggers list. That's worth about ten seconds of genuine pleasure. Not knocking that, but I've had months of enjoyment, satisfaction and (still virtual as I'm out of the running for the Leeds Social) friendship out of the rest. Maybe it's about perspective.; October 10, 2009 at 12:53 PM
Blimpy said...: hi toffeeboy - did you get the email I sent you?; October 10, 2009 at 2:09 PM
ToffeeBoy said...: @ Abahachi - I'll give you a bonus 'Spill point simply because you clearly knew the answer but didn't demand a reward!

The original point is therefore still unclaimed ...

Where to start ...

@ nilpferd - yes, it was all meant rhetorically, or at least with a twinkle in my eye - and yet there is a (semi-serious) point to be made. As others have said, perhaps more eloquently than I, there's a certain pleasure to be had in seeing the track that you nominated in print at the breakfast table on Friday morning or online in the wee small hours. However sad this may sound, I got a huge amount of personal satisfaction from discovering that Prefab Sprout's Whoever You Are had made it onto the A-List for the Strangers theme. Partly because it's their only success to date and partly because I know that Paddy McAloon is a Guardian reader and would (presumably) have been quite chuffed to see his song there - and you just know that he checks!

The other side of the coin here (allowing for the concept of a balanced universe) is that when a song that really means something to you doesn't make it on the list, there's a sense of disappointment. There is also, I hope, a sense of perspective and it's just on those odd occasions (perhaps when work has been particularly shitty) that the sense of perspective becomes somewhat buried beneath a sense of stupidity. Perhaps, to a degree, that happened yesterday evening.

And of course you're absolutely right - this had nothing to do with Led Zeppelin. I hereby revoke my rebuke.; October 10, 2009 at 3:58 PM
ToffeeBoy said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; October 10, 2009 at 4:07 PM
ToffeeBoy said...: @ shane - loved your post - are you a fan of James Joyce - and you're right - Cloudbusting is as spot on a nomination as you can get - and yes, Maddy definitely had the Spirit of t'Spill coursing through her veins - probably still has - and yes, it's just a parlour game - what, me? Stress????? ....

@ tfd - I like your positive, glass-half-full attitude - as Chris said, I think we each have similar problems with our somewhat off the main-RR-stream tastes - but it makes the rare successes that more valuable - a tfd A-Lister is worth 8 steenbecks on current exchange rates. And everyone's buying Chris7572 futures!; October 10, 2009 at 4:07 PM
ToffeeBoy said...: @ bethnoir - thanks for that timely reminder that for every Everton moaning about the Big Four, there's a Tranmere thinking, if only ... (if you'll excuse the football analogy)

@ DsD - well what can I say. Thank you for the very kind words and for the time you so clearly took to compose them. I'd love to hear more about your 'unedifying strop' by the way. And thanks for your entirely plausible explanation of the process - makes sense to me.

As for a Lotto gift, I think I'll wait until I see what Zeus has in store for me - was it daughter's hand (or possibly her entire body) - I really should have read the small print ...

Oh, and sorry about that stain - I'm sure it'll come out ...; October 10, 2009 at 4:15 PM
ToffeeBoy said...: @ tincanman - thanks for the reassurance - I nearly didn't post it on here. It was genuinely cathartic just composing it and once it was there it seemed wrong not to publish - I did toy with the idea of sending it you first to see what you thought about exposing it to a wider audience ...

I don't remember if you were around much in the Maddy days but I suspect you would have done quite well then.

@ Makinavaja - glad you liked Rain. There's lots of good stuff on the first three Martin Stephenson albums - happy to share if you're on dropbox.

@ shoey - I'll get over to the MS as soon as I've said my piece here. Sounds like you've been winding them up - I didn't see the deleted post - care to expand on it here????; October 10, 2009 at 4:21 PM
ToffeeBoy said...: @ lambretinha - thank you, thank you, thank you. I didn't take any of what you said as a rebuke - although, perhaps I deserved it. I can honestly say that I have never posted anything so negative about a song before and I sincerely regret doing so. I've mentioned that I don't like Bob Dylan, Bruce Springsteen and The Rolling Stones (to name but three) and I will openly add Led Zeppelin to that list but the sort of negativity which I dropped into on the third comment was uncalled for and, as nilpferd correctly pointed out, not what my post was about anyway. A lesser person than you clearly are would have taken umbrage and then stuffed said umbrage where the sun don't shine, somewhere on my bodily person - so thank you not only for not doing so, but instead for going in the other direction and writing nice things about me which I don't deserve. Whew!!!

And you're right - it is fun, isn't it?; October 10, 2009 at 4:33 PM
tincanman said...: TB
Wrong. I got zilch with Maddy.
But then we've had more gurus than I have A lists, so someone had to miss out. I'm sure she's kicking herself now though.; October 10, 2009 at 4:36 PM
ToffeeBoy said...: @ Abahachi - no argument from me, whatsoever. Your nominations are consistently accompanied by high quality, well-reasoned, on-topic justifications. Even if that justification is occasionally something along the lines: 'well Susanna Hoffs is utterly gorgeous and therefore this song should be on the list'. Again, you'll get no argument from me ...

@ ejd - that's a remarkably perceptive comparison of RR gurus and Chelski managers - particularly coming from a Gooner. Of course Claudio Ranieri was always going to be my favourite out of that sorry bunch!; October 10, 2009 at 4:38 PM
ToffeeBoy said...: @ Chris - yes, I know it's not getting worked up about and I'm not now. But I was momentarily and the spleen-venting felt good.

As for my avatar, are you saying that someone who can teach a cat to type is not a force to be reckoned with? This is exactly the sort of skill that's going to be needed as we move into a new apocalyptic age. You need to think outside the box on this one ...

;0)

@ May1366 = yes, RR and, particularly the 'Spill got me through some stressful times last year. But in the last few months RR seems to have been adding to my stress rather than otherwise. Perspective is the right word.; October 10, 2009 at 4:46 PM
ToffeeBoy said...: @ blimpy - no, I didn't. Unless it was the one about increasing the size of one of my body parts or the one from a friend of mine in Nigeria who has a business proposal to put to me. Those went into my spam box ...; October 10, 2009 at 4:47 PM
Abahachi said...: Yes, but is the cat going to be able to exert enough force to use a manual typewriter, or to work the treadmill to power the computer at the same time as typing?; October 10, 2009 at 5:01 PM
ToffeeBoy said...: @ Aba - it may look like a conventional manual typewriter but in fact it's a cunningly disguised super-computer, from which our Misty will be able to control those parts of the world (or at least south-west Hertfordshire) which escape the forthcoming day of reckoning. It's nearly upon us - run, I tell you! Run!!!!; October 10, 2009 at 5:14 PM
Shoey said...: The deleted post was another rant, triggered by the new jumbo Avatars. It must be tirade week. Will copy the offending article in my post down the page, as I need the ratings more than you, by the look of things. Glad you got the Pastels ok - kept it to the older stuff, but there later & more recent offerings are well worth dipping into - the new Tenniscoats teamup in particular.; October 10, 2009 at 5:21 PM
Blimpy said...: tfb - is yours the ntlworld email still?; October 10, 2009 at 5:39 PM
Abahachi said...: Yes, clearly the best way of lifting one's comment count is to write half of them. Or get your cat to do it.; October 10, 2009 at 6:03 PM
Abahachi said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; October 10, 2009 at 6:03 PM
Makinavaja said...: TB - I am on DB so if you would be so kind...; October 10, 2009 at 6:14 PM
ToffeeBoy said...: @ Abahachi - it also helps when people delete their comments. ;0); October 10, 2009 at 6:51 PM
ToffeeBoy said...: @ Makinavaja - if you can let me have your email address - if you're worried about posting it here, send it to: dave.annal [at] ntlworld.com

I'll then send you an invitation to a shared folder, I'll let you know when the music's there and you can take it from there.; October 10, 2009 at 6:53 PM
Makinavaja said...: Makinavajarr (at) gmail.com; October 10, 2009 at 7:17 PM
gremlinfc said...: @EJD - Chelsea existed long before your managers- my suspicion is he is in fact either Glenn Hoddle , Ruud Gullit or possibly John Hollins or at the worst John Neal (when they were in the 2nd Division...)- guess who my cousin played under in the first team...; October 10, 2009 at 7:57 PM
steenbeck said...: I'll dond what most people have said - particularly Lambretinha - lovely post.

I think we all know how bad it feels when a song we love, that fits perfectly, that got a bit of support,doesn't make the list, But there are probably 50 songs like that every week, and only 10 slots. I think all the Gurus have done a good job on something that's got to be very hard and relatively thankless.

Rain is a lovely song, by the way, thanks for posting it. I couldn't find it last week, because I was too late, I think.; October 10, 2009 at 9:13 PM
JJsaneshane said...: @toffee

that's almost exactly how my head works... in a quick comment...

you can see why I do pictures not words, can't you!; October 10, 2009 at 9:36 PM
Abahachi said...: Well, yes, I thought that was a way of softening the harshness of my buke. Like this. And nothing to do with pressing the button twice for the same post.; October 10, 2009 at 9:36 PM
Abahachi said...: And I could post this on any thread, as we don't have anything directly relevant, but I'll do it here 'cos I like you. What is going on with Strictly? Why is the dancing wardrobe still there? Is this simply a matter of the Welsh (bar Mrs Abahachi) voting for the Welsh? Okay, the Wardrobe is less annoying than Kate Garraway, but he's not as funny as John Simpson. I blame political correctness meself.; October 10, 2009 at 9:38 PM
Ejd said...: That's true gremlinfc, but I don't care that much about other clubs, I actually quite dislike cfc, but they're often in the news. I think it was actually a comment by shoey when Pail came in asking if we were like a football teams with endless caretaker managers that sparked tha thought. Apologies if this makes no sense, i'm typing this on an phone.; October 10, 2009 at 9:41 PM
ToffeeBoy said...: @ Abahachi - come on - admit it - you're watching X-Factor like the rest of us ...; October 10, 2009 at 9:55 PM
TatankaYotanka said...: A couple of people above have nearly said this, but we could play a 'peer group' game and have our own top ten each week based on the number of donds received , a 'D' list I suppose.; October 10, 2009 at 11:42 PM
tincanman said...: I gotta tell you TY, judges take a dim view of peer groups

he he, a dim view. look what I did there without even trying

anyway, as I was saying, my view ... omg, I did it again ... is if people don't want me peering in their windows, they'd shut the blinds better. Apparently the legal system views - no, three would be overkill - it differently. But then they are all in cahoots with the blind consortium.

not the ones who can't see, the ones who ... oh never mind; October 10, 2009 at 11:51 PM
saneshane said...: I once thought a 'spill guru list would be great.. just as an experiment in how hard it is:

Rules:

Nominate Guru... (this week obviously Toffeeboy)

Write up your top 10
(2 songs are aloud to be your own.. don't want to piss yourself off when justifying choices)

cut off same point

post before mid-night thursday - (or equivalent in own time zone)

writing style - up to the individual (cut and paste- one liners- in-depth analysis - or just like the paper)

I know DsD has been gagging to fill in for the Paper. when a gurus on holiday.

Last rule..
you can't choose the theme.. nominate yourself before it's up... an see how tough it is!

(links to final songs would be great but not essential- they don't work that hard on the paper! - we can usually find them)

(now I have to go and pass out - cos I'm shattered and merry!); October 11, 2009 at 12:06 AM
tincanman said...: Steen knows - she curated the Maddy CD(s)!; October 11, 2009 at 12:12 AM
saneshane said...: I had to keep telling her that I couldn't design any more covers..

(a simple 87 cd box set with 20 odd tracks on each.. okay, soted by breakfast time!); October 11, 2009 at 12:19 AM
tincanman said...: speaking of cd covers.....; October 11, 2009 at 12:34 AM
steenbeck said...: So, Shane, would it be based on the actual RR topic that week, and the actual nominations? So would Toffee have to come up with a list of ten lazy songs by Thursday?

And yes, I do know from the Maddy list, and the hardest part was trying to include one by each 'Spiller. So, Shoegazer, if you're listening, although I agree that your only-one-per-customer idea makes it more fair, I think it would add so much work that we'd have to give up on RR altogether, and it doesn't seem worth that to me.; October 11, 2009 at 1:22 PM
ToffeeBoy said...: @ shane/steen - nice idea - I don't have any spare time at all this week ...; October 11, 2009 at 3:33 PM
saneshane said...: oh well such a shame toffee..

but yeah it would run in conjunction with the weeks theme.. if anyone wants to have a go!

@tincanman
'speaking of cd covers....?'
what haven't I done now...
(I know I've still got Steens and DsDs sitting here waiting for me to finish stuff off - am I slacking with you too? thinking about it.. I haven't send you a final copy either, have I!); October 11, 2009 at 6:27 PM
Abahachi said...: Great idea, but, again, completely snowed under for the next couple of weeks; will miss most of next week's theme, for a start.; October 11, 2009 at 10:12 PM
DarceysDad said...: Evening all.

Yes, Shane's right. I'd love to do a stand-in job on the proper RR ...

... but ...

Can we leave it at that level of dream, please? I really wouldn't want to get involved in any rival/alternative/pastiche of the mothership, for FAR too many reasons to go into now.

Oh, and as Abahachi has mentioned here that he'll be missing for most of next week's RR, I may as well say so will I. (Hopefully) minor surgery early on Friday morning, so after a possible hour at the MFF, my next appearance will depend on (i) what they find, and (ii) how long it takes me to recover.

Off to finish justifying the remainder of my RR 'Lazy' nominations now, then bed.

G'night all.; October 11, 2009 at 10:22 PM
May1366 said...: Fingers crossed for Friday morning, DsD...unless crossed fingers is the complaint you're having looked at, in which case I'll leave it at hope it all goes well.; October 11, 2009 at 11:32 PM
ToffeeBoy said...: @ DsD - hope it goes well - and hope it's nothing too serious and that you'll be back playing for the first 11 soon ...; October 12, 2009 at 8:04 PM
lambretinha said...: Best wishes to DsD from me as well. I hope it's nothing serious :); October 13, 2009 at 9:53 AM
tincanman said...: I think he said it was something with his foot (the result of too much foot in mouth?), so hopefully it'll be fairly straightforward. I know he'd hate to have to rest up by his computer listening to music and blogging for a few weeks.; October 13, 2009 at 9:57 AM
DarceysDad said...: Thank you all for the best wishes.
I wasn't going to expand on the surgery, but as you're all guessing wrong ...

My toe X-rays aren't back from being coloured in yet, and I doubt they'd operate on that anyway.

It's actually removal of a lump in my chest, that's doubled in size to over an inch diameter in 3mths. Sounds dramatic, but they're fairly sure it's only fibrous, and the only reason it's coming out is because it's on my ribs and making it uncomfortable to pick Darcey up. In fact it is deemed so minor that I'm only going to a walk-in surgery. Any use of anaesthetic and a knife is going to make me nervous of course, but this one shouldn't be an issue.

I am planning a weekend of feet up with the laptop and the blog, though! Tincanman was right about that.

;o); October 13, 2009 at 6:50 PM
SatanKidneyPie said...: Hope all goes well, DsD. Looking forward to lots of interesting posts this week...; October 13, 2009 at 9:09 PM

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